Suicide Isn’t Always Selfish
By Andy Alt / Mental Dimensions
October 3, 2008 – The following is a partial exchange between myself and the webmistress of Into the Rabbit Hole. After she wrote an article called Suicide – The easy selfish., I took time out of my unbusy schedule to put in my one-and-a-half cents worth. Read the article above for the full text, including all comments left by other visitors.
Gratefully, she and I have an understanding now; and we’re like peas and carrots, but without the butter and salt (which doesn’t really make much sense unless you’re a health freak, or eating steak and have to leave early so you don’t actually have time to start eating your vegetables).
Andy Alt Says:
August 25th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
I’ll have to disagree with you on a few points. Only in some cases it’s selfish, but otherwise that’s a very general statement. Just because a person considers suicide doesn’t mean they are lazy, selfish, or not a fighter. I’ve had two attempts, but have been fighting it for over two decades. Two decades of enduring much mental agony and torture. I’ve asked for help, I’ve been to several different therapists, I’ve taken many different medications, and after all that, I still get moderately or severely depressed frequently. To have to deal with something like that for the majority of your life with little bits of relief scattered here and there is something even the bravest fighters would have difficulty enduring without giving thought to an escape. Secondly, some of your points imply that a person who is on the brink of suicide is thinking rationally.
Just because you don’t feel like you’re needed doesn’t mean you’re not.
If a person is seriously considering taking their own life, they are not thinking rationally. Every person has an instinct of self-preservation, some stronger than others, and I don’t know anyone, including myself, who ever lightly decided to kill him or herself. My father committed suicide when I was eight years old. Do you think I’m angry at him or think he was selfish? No, but I’m sure I did at some points in my life. But now over 25 years later, talking to relatives and immediate family who knew him, I know without a doubt he loved us. I’m sure at the time that he pulled the trigger, in his irrational hopeless state, he believed we’d be better off without him. Obviously if he was rational he wouldn’t have thought that way. What must be understood is that when someone feels hopeless, literally hopeless, that they are truly without hope. That means that there isn’t even hope that tomorrow will be better, or that with help they can get better. They are utterly without hope of escape, relief and any chance of a future that doesn’t involve pain and an inability to function normally within society or within their family. As far as leaving behind hurt, I agree with you of course. It’s extremely unfortunate when someone feels they have no other course of action and are completely out of options. It’s feels worse than a nightmare, because you can wake up from a nightmare. I haven’t felt it for a few years, but I remember a time when I felt like I was living in a nightmare and it was terrible because I knew that I was awake and I didn’t even have the escape of waking up to find out it was all a dream.
POHA Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Andy,
I appreciate your insight! I cannot learn to empathize if I don’t welcome disagreement on such a touchy subject.
It’s true that no one is perfect, myself included. I get emotionally reactive when I think of someone leaving me– and I’ll admit, it’s often for selfish reasons, thus my emotional reaction.
So, all judgment aside, I’m putting myself onto an equal plane of selfishness.
The problem is that when you feel that loss of hope, and that lack of rationality kicks in, it still doesn’t make you any less responsible for your actions and the way you live your life.
I guess that’s where my stumbling block lies.
I’m not saying that taking responsibility for your life will automatically *snap* you back from utter depression, but at the same time, when you can know logically that you own this life, that you create and control this life, you will also feel the self-efficacy necessary to propel you back from the pits of hell– even if this feeling is barely at your fingertips.
This coming from personal experience.
In other blogs from people I love and respect dearly, the issue of not having control of their depression has been a hot topic lately. I don’t mean to say that one should be capable of just popping out of it. However, one should certainly have the trust in their own ability to work through depression because ultimately, eventually, it is possible, if not probable.
I, too, have a tendency towards depression, and it sucks. I’ve never been suicidal, but have experienced the complete lack of joy, motivation, and comfort. I know how bad it can be.
I think that your attitude defines everything. As long as you can hang on to that last strand of hope, it is nearly impossible to think that there’s no coming back.
Andy Alt Says:
August 26th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Thank you for elaborating your point. Yes, everyone is responsible for their own actions. And when my father took his life, and I attempted to take mine, we were acting irresponsibly. Neither was an act done out of selfishness though, they were done out of hopelessness, fear, and irrational thinking.It wasn’t done out of weakness, for anyone that knows me well will tell you that I don’t have a weak character. My father earned a living and supported a wife and five kids until the age of 36. I don’t believe he was weak, because even the strongest branch has its breaking point.
I wouldn’t say that you’re putting yourself on an equal plane of selfishness, because your feelings of not wanting to lose a loved one aren’t present due to desperation and hopelessness, they exist within you more because your love, and your knowledge of the devastation you’d feel with the incredible loss you’d experience. Selfishness is human nature, until humans evolve to the point where telepathic communication is a normal human trait. There are degrees of selfishness, however, a suffering person is more likely to think more of their own self due to how humans cope and their abilities to adjust to certain circumstances. It’s quite obvious to me when combat veterans come home and commit suicide that they are not selfish people, but mere humans whose minds were not designed nor equipped to deal effectively with the horrors they’ve experienced. If for a period of one year someone can watch his friends get blown to bits in a jungle, shoot innocent civilians by accident, be eaten by bugs while you sleep, then I’d say he isn’t selfish, he has earned his right to relief if that’s his wish, and if that is the only method of escape he can see at the time he’s got a gun to his head. A selfish act? Superficially, yes, but not primarily motivated by a selfish nature.
POHA Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 7:14 am
Andy,
I appreciate your words more than just about any comment I’ve had yet! (aside from the sweet I-love-you’s I get from my gentleman!)
I need to know and understand this. I need to work on my empathy and less on my judgment of it. One day, I’ll be in a psychiatrist’s shoes and need to GET it when someone feels this bad.
So, Andy, thank you.
Hi there, thanks for still thinking of me. I still appreciate you!!
Hey, Ash, of course I still think about you. I still have your RSS feed plugged into akregator so I’m frequently sticking my head into the Rabbit Hole, especially when there is a shortage of other holes to be sticking my head into.
When I originally commented on your post about suicide, I neglected to mention something important. When I first read your post, one of my concerns was that a person considering suicide might read it. I understand that sometimes calling people cowardly or selfish is used to guilt people into not killing themselves, however it’s an approach I personally don’t believe in (I don’t mean to imply that causing guilt was your intent — my inference was that you were simply expressing your feelings about it.) for two reasons.
First, having guilt be the deciding factor of a suicidal person to stay alive is not a good method to prevent a suicide. One could say
and that’s true to a certain point, but why use a negative means of persuasion when positive ones are available? Especially because point number 2:
You’re already aware, Ash, I’m sure, that depression is often accompanied by guilt. And also, guilt is frequently a contributing factor to feelings of depression.
So I guess what this all means, Ash, what I’m trying to say in my round-about way, is that I didn’t like your post. (wink,smile)
I checked back on Ash’s site today, and left the following comment:
Hiya Ash! I didn’t know people added to this discussion; I’m glad I thought to come back and check.
The timing is perfect, because a new insight recently struck me. There were times in my life when I have had such mental turmoil that I was worried I was going insane. I realized later this only happens during periods of extreme anxiety, so after a while I was able to tell myself, “It’ll pass. I only feel this way because I’m more stressed than usual.” So because I worried about going insane, I worried that I might hurt other people. It’s not in my nature to hurt other people, though, but as I indicated there have been times when I wasn’t quite rational. So, I have to wonder, how many people commit suicide because from their mental turmoil they worry they might hurt other people, how many don’t understand that a worry is a worry, and a worry is different from a plan. Often on the news people hear about the mentally ill person who did this or that to their neighbor, or to their family. So it’s not very hard to believe that a mentally unstable/suicidal person will start believing he or she might be capable of the same thing.
As I mentioned previously, my father committed suicide. He didn’t leave a note. I’d never considered it before, but I now wonder if he worried about “losing his mind” or “going insane” and possibly hurting his children or his wife. Expressing that type of fear would be hard to put in a suicide note. A person would rather be remembered as someone who just killed himself, rather than thought of as someone who might hurt others.
Although I have no reason to believe my dad had this fear, I think it’s definitely within the realm of possibility, and just as possible it could happen and has been the reason for other suicides.